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How do we revive PhysicsOverflow?

+ 6 like - 0 dislike
2474 views

My name is Roger Cattin (but for consistency if prefer to stay polarkernel on this site), I am 65 years old and I live in Germany. I am a former professor for Computer Perception and Medical Image Processing. I lectured and researched at a University of Applied Sciences in Switzerland. I had to retire there two years ago due to my age. I am completely independent, I don’t care about any reputation and I will never again in my life have to search for a job. As I always declared in my profile, I am not a physicist.

Instead of cultivating my garden, as pensioners usually are expected to do, I decided to invest my knowledge and a large part of my time to create and support PhysicOverflow. I have been impressed by the level and the culture of discussion I have found on SE.TP. I have been convinced by Dilaton that it could be worth to setup a free site for physicists. I am not related to Dilaton and we are not the same person (this stupid idea made me laugh, seen that our styles to write are really completely different).

I have prepared a plant for you in the hope that it gets cultivated to a beautiful garden, where flowers and other plants may grow, even those that get cut on other sites. But what I see today is a desert. The site got an arena of politics, where gladiators and self-proclaimed prosecutors produce an abominable mud-wrestling, in order to get power over the site. It makes me sick to see how you try to undermine and pervert fundamental rights, as privacy and anonymity.

@RonMaimon You say I do not talk to you? Well, I have once searched in my mail archive. The last time I have been in the recipients list of your emails was in a response to my Christmas wishes. Then I have to go back to September 2014, where you complained about a database connect error. So, who does not talk to whom? You are right, I do not trust you. You appear to me as a very destructive person, an egoist, absolutely unable to work in a constructive way within a team. Your capitalized words in your emails (forwarded to me by the co-founders) do not impress me at all, although you call them arguments, I can’t respect such a tone. As I am not physicist, I also can’t understand how you got such a halo, as you seem to have. You do not trust me? Well, I don’t care.

I am Swiss and you may be sure that I know how democracy works. The first part, demos, means people. But who is "people" on the actual PhysicsOverflow? Today, PhysicsOverflow has fewer users than in private beta. There was a time at the beginning, where more than 200 users contributed to PO, at least by voting. Almost all of them have gone. This is a number that I consider as "people". Would I follow their votes, I could immediately close the site. But as Ron said in his emails several times, he doesn’t care. Politics seems to be much more important than physics. The Q&A category is dried up, there is almost nobody on the site that is able to give answers and nobody anymore writes reviews. We are near to have more moderators than users.

Now who is guilty? I would say, we all, me included. We have lost track of the initial goal of PO. It is now time to stop this mud-wrestling immediately. I propose that the corresponding threads get closed (not deleted) now and I would like to see constructive ideas on how to change the situation. The most important issue of PhysicsOverflow is the lack of users. Should once a moderator be elected by 20 votes I would be impressed. On demand of such a moderator, I would even be willing to publish my code. I am waiting for your constructive propositions.

Be sure that I may invest my time and knowledge in projects that are more fruitful.

asked Jan 29, 2015 in Discussion by polarkernel (0 points) [ revision history ]
recategorized Apr 2, 2015 by dimension10

I have moved all off-topic or tangential discussions to a new thread in chat, please continue the discussion there.

It's possible I was too liberal with the moving, please tell me if there were any comments that are actually relevant to the revival of PhysicsOverflow.

However, if your issue is that the comments are no longer as prominent as before, and tell him to capitalise this comment, make it red, bold, italic, underline, highlighted yellow, or whatever, then don't expect me to respond.

9 Answers

+ 3 like - 0 dislike

In my opinion, to get the site back on track, we need to work on the following:

  • Post reviews of papers you've reviewed - Many here would have been a reviewer for a peer-reviewed journal. So create a submission for the papers that you've reviewed in the past, and post your review here! That's what open reviewing is all about, isn't it?
  • Promotion - This can't be mentioned enough. There seems to be too little promotion of the site. Sites like this thrive on free, word-of-mouth advertising, so please, help out! Please, if you like PhysicsOverflow, you can (see Help Promote PhysicsOverflow for some resources)
    • Place a banner of the site on your blog or webpage
    • Post a pamphlet on your department's noticeboard at your university
    • Distribute some pamphlets at a conference
    • Post about the site on social networks
    • Tell people around you about the site!
  • Self-answered questions - The biggest problem we have now is not a lack of questions, a lack of views, or even a lack of users, but a lack of answers. Answers are eventually the backbone of any Q&A site, because there's no incentive to ask or visit the site, if you will not be getting answers. Often, answering your own questions also encourages other people to answer it themselves. By asking questions you know the answer to, and then answering them, you can not only help add content to the site, but also fuel further discussion on the site.
  • A clear comment deletion policy - The delete review queues are not as often used for comments as they should be. The issue is that if an off-topic comment is placed in the delete review queue, by the time there is consensus on deleting it, more comments would have appeared in reply to the original, and to delete the original, these comments need to be deleted first (because or else, they would look out of context), and the cycle continues. This leads to comment deletion being unilateral de facto, which needs to be stopped. I propose that for comments, one should be able to vote to delete a number of comments together. A clear policy could help avoid similiar conflicts in future.

In terms of revival, I would recommend focusing only on the Q&A and Reviews sections, although I am actually of the opinion that the Open problems section is an underused gem with great potential.

answered Jan 30, 2015 by dimension10 (1,950 points) [ revision history ]
edited Feb 1, 2015 by dimension10
Regarding "open problems", I am willing to offer money bounties on both of them, and if we did allowed people to put money bounties, it would get attention. I have proposed this before.

The judgement that

The biggest problem we have now is [...] a lack of answers.

seems very true to me.

More promotion might help a little, though maybe not. I announce most every question or answer that I send to PO also on g+, but I am unsure if this has any noticable effect regarding user activity here. 

From experience I expect that the only way to eventually succeed is to, somehow,  get a small core group of active users that set a precedent. If only there were two or three more of the kin of, say,  conformal_gk, Arnold Neumaier, regularly active here, having actual exchanges with each other (answering each other's questions) then people would see this and by seeing this that would become convinced to join in.

+ 2 like - 0 dislike

Its a strange thing, One year ago the this site was just starting, Now there is talk about how to revive It.

Personally, The questions on this site are too hard for me to answer. Stack exchange had a lot of questions which I could answer. Perhaps one day I can contribute good answers to some of the questions on this site.

What I like about this site is there are some experts on this site, which makes it completely worth it, on the rare occation that I asked a question I got excellent answers.

It doesn't matter how many question are asked, so long as good question are being asked(and bad questions are understood for why they are bad), it always counts as progress.

However It seems to me that, there are several other issues that need to be sorted, the kind that really will kill the site. I have absolutely no idea, what when on, why so many and nearly hostile comments exchanged. I hope you can sort it out between yourselfs, I will only say a place where research happens, requires a warm and forgiving environment.

answered Feb 24, 2015 by Prathyush (695 points) [ revision history ]
edited Feb 24, 2015 by Prathyush
Most voted comments show all comments

@Dilaton Do I understand you correctly, that a post with both physics content and offensive material can be edited?

  1.  For comments, that would need a comment history recording feature. This is on the roadmap, so OK.
  2. Propose a change to user rights on meta, for the proper functioning of this.

@JiaYiyang Thank you for pointing out the correct way to use the @ function, I will repeat some points so that @RonMaimon @dimension10 @physicsnewbie @polarkernel and @Dilaton will see. Again If you like any of the things I suggest please turn them into a meta post.

There are 2 separate issues here one is how can the moderation be more effective. For that I suggest that any moderator action must be independently verified by other moderators(and possibly even trusted members of the community). That way any bad moderator decision(which seem rare) can be immediately rectified by the other moderators, without significant turbulence in the meta.

If the entire group of moderators make a mistake, then It can be brought up in the meta and that is a serious issue.

The next is as Jia pointed out, where do we draw the line about rudeness. And he indicated that the the current line is, So long as a comment has some scientific content, Its fine for it to contain personal attacks and so on. And in that pretext anything else can be written along with some scientific content.

@dimension10 A comment with a personal attack can be easily edited removing the personal attack part of it, with compromising on its scientific content.

Why does anyone visit this site? I visit it for its scientific content, I have absolutely no interest in personal attacks, rude comments, or "who is what" type of things. I suspect the same will be true about anyone interested in science and not gossip.

For that reason I think rudeness, personal attacks must be actively discouraged, as they have no scientific value. It also has a negative impact on the site because It can drive people mad, distracted(you may not like it,  but its true, you've seen it happen right here).

Saying that sometimes people get aggressive for what ever reason, and they should be excused for their aggression. Which is why It is a good thing that Physics overflow does not ban people for personal aggression.

Please It is important that the site is not recognized as the one which allows for personal attacks to happen freely and without check. People will simply not participate.

@Prathyush, The exact line is indeed hard to draw since the degrees of aggressiveness form a continuous spectrum, but I assume here you are talking about the worst kind(though the definitions of "worst" may vary from person to person), and fear that it might hurt the site. I think most of the name-callings are spur-of-the-moment(genuinely planned malicious acts must be quite rare), which the authors probably will voluntarily remove after talked to. In the worst of the worst case, which can hardly happen, surely moderation might intervene. However, right now I strongly discourage "edit part of the comment" kind of behavior, since we haven't developed a log system for editions of comments, therefore a mistake can hardly be rectified. The recent episode made me very conservative on any edition of comments. 

Ideally, when the log system is ready, an author of the comments should be able to see exactly how his/her comments are edited, and can protest on meta if he/she feels unfairly treated. When that time comes I might become less conservative.

BTW I'm almost certain the recent lack of activity is not due to the "hostility" you are spotting, it's simply that we have never gained a critical mass of experts, who probably never bothered to visit meta.  

@dimension10 @JiaYiyang lets not get sidetracked by what we can do about activity and why it is so low. Activity will take time. Even 2-3 questions a day is probably just about fine, given they are difficult, and often quite good question. Thats different topic altogether.

If it helps the community to solve the comment edit/delete issue, I will give priority to the development of point 5 of our roadmap. However, this will take some time, it isn't that simple as it may appear.

Most recent comments show all comments

@Prathyush:

I will only say a place where research happens, requires a warm and forgiving environment.

Now it is time to pave the way for it here on PO, by supporting with your comments and votes an improvement of the current user rights and editing practice

@ArnoldNeumaier I did not know that this discussion was happening in the meta. Thank you for pinging me. I will carefully review your suggestions, write a longer post perhaps over the weekend.

While I have not yet read your suggestions and the comments closely, I am of the view point(strictly at a personal level) that all conversations must be soft(as opposed to harsh), as it would be most helpful if it was done that way, even in the light of the most severe disagreement.

However, I do not like the idea of putting words into someone else's mouth. I see it is a responsibility of users to create a warm environment and not the Moderators. And only suggestions must be made in this direction.

I am very much in favour of encouraging a polite conversation as @JiaYiyang has suggested. Perhaps in the form of a FAQ question or guidelines.

My reason is simple, If you force someone, he will never understand why it is important to be polite, even if you do the same edits a 100 times. It may help the site to look good on paper, but the real problem is probably much deeper than that. 

I have to think about it again. When I write a longer answer, I will share the draft of the user rights that I originally suggested, and had discussed with @RonMaimon and @Dilaton. While I think the draft still works for my intended purposes. I had decided against it because of possibility of abuses.

I have been reading the all the answers since the discussion started, and It seems completely peaceful so far. I would still prefer to wait and see, if a change to the user rights policy is really needed.

+ 2 like - 0 dislike

From an outsider's perspective,

I agree entirely with @ArnoldNeumaier , @polarkernel , and like minded statements. I am a graduate student, engaged peripherally in several topics discussed. I appreciate the intent and content of the site but choose not to participate when I come. I suspect many others do the same. The site appears elitist and unwelcoming, even to qualified prospects.

You have chosen absolute tolerance of bad behavior at the expense of reality. In the real world (academics included) we share equal freedom of speech but there are practical limits and consequences. While you have the right to be rude to friends, eventually you will have no friends to be rude to (the natural consequence). While this analogy is slightly misplaced in an academic setting, professionalism is paramount. A professor is not entitled to curse during lecture, at students or faculty, despite their accomplishments and feelings; they willingly accept a level of censorship to further their institution. Rudeness is never a virtue, always a vice- without (imposed) consequences to the individual, the real world (natural) response results in fewer members and ultimately hurts the community as whole- Physics Overflow has overlooked this and is paying the price.

Why even have guidelines regarding conduct when they are not and cannot be enforced?

After reading the monumental question posed, I spent a great deal of time looking through past Meta discussions with respect to the comments, answers, and tone presented in the Q/A and reviews. As noted, it is difficult (and dangerous) to isolate tone from science. However, answers and comments should reflect the objectivity and respect seen in published scientific journals. Disagreement and legitimate discussion is possible (and more productive) without hostility! Answers should not be downvoted for their tone, but users must be held accountable (by the community) for their tone or the entire community suffers.

@RonMaimon  You are toxic. Chaos and vitriol follow you at every turn. You hide behind physics and freedom from censorship, intentionally being contentious and hostile. You insist on having the last word and continue until others are silenced, the epitome of a troll. I was hard pressed to come across (consistent) overtly rude behavior by other users- in other words, currently, the lack of censorship protects *only* your hostility and hurts the community at large.

Without a doubt, vigorous discussion is unavoidable and should be encouraged. Difficult problems require more heated debate. Presumably, there is mutual respect and professionalism, where censorship is not needed. By observation, this is not the case.

While I agree that censorship should be minimal, if Physics Overflow cannot reconcile civility with scientific inquiry, it is doomed to fade into oblivion. Without mechanisms to protect the communities interests alongside our own, we all lose this valuable resource.

@Dilaton , @dimension10 , @physicsnewbie @VladK. , @JiaYiyang , @annav 

answered Nov 18, 2015 by Outsider [ revision history ]
edited Nov 18, 2015

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and perspective.

Yes, there admittedly have been some rough times in the past (you see, that this discussion is almost a year old by now).

But I think we have learned a fair bit from it, for example we have new editing guidelines

http://www.physicsoverflow.org/28190/proposed-editing-guidelines?show=28190#q28190

that allow everybody who has editing privilege to help maintaining the professionality and standard of contributions an academic community expects, needs and is used to, by editing any too rough edges.

Of course, what also helps discouraging not so good things and behavior is a strong community, who firmly and consistently calls bad things out as such whenever they are happening, and actively takes part in community moderation.

@Dilaton Thanks for your response.  I post because I want PO to succeed, not to criticize, and I respect that this community operates differently by choice.  I did read that post and I think it is a great compromise.

Ill add that in my opinion, its a temporary fix because other users must actively work to hide the root problem, often after damage is done.  In the real world there are consequences.  How is rudeness discouraged (other than asking)?  What are the consequences if they continue to violate the communities consensus?  Without consequences, why conform?

* Obviously criticism, critique, and disagreement are vastly different than hostility!

@Outsider I appreciate your comments as a much needed feedback rather than seeing it as a criticism.

Since this thread has been active, the climate on PhysicsOverflow has significantly improved. Of course, there certainly is still room for making the site more attractive and useful to the targetted audience of PO, this is why when announcing our newest features to our registered members by email, our system developper explicitely invited feedback and comments about the site too.

Further Improvements need to be backed up and supported by a large enough community, which means that there have to be enough people who are willing to share their point of view, issue their concerns, and generally give feedback as you have just done.

I think what is most urgently needed at present for the community to grow, is having interesting physics discussions going on the front page ...

So thanks again, and we would be very happy to see you making use of PO.

@Dilaton: dimension10 has hidden my comments here because he does not want me to share my point of view.

@VladimirKalitvianski No, I deleted them because they were off-topic. The question was in the context of string theory. You can't expect anyone to tolerate the same "string theory is wrong"/"renormalisation is wrong"/... comments on every post related to the same.

Heck, perhaps we should allow the philosophers to post "positivism is bad" under every physics thread, since it's related to the topic of the site. PO would be drowned within hours.

Comments, like all other posts, are expected to be relevant to the discussion, rather than just the general category of the same. You can start a chat discussion for it if you like, but that's about it.

Also, if you want to continue this discussion, please start a new meta post or message me. Irrelevant comments will be deleted.

+ 2 like - 0 dislike

I will try, if I may, to give my personal point of view on PhysicsOverflow, and the reasons why I have used it very little.

When PhysicsOverflow has been launched, I hoped that it would be something equivalent to MathOverflow, a lively community of high-level physicists covering all aspects of physics. But after a few visits, I understood that this was absolutely not the goal of PhysicsOverflow and I have been disappointed. I deeply regret that PhysicsOverflow is actually almost restricted to high-energy theoretical physics. As if MathOverflow was limited to the Langlands program. There a many people working in physics, studying theory, that are not high-energy physicists. For instance people working in transport theory, non-equilibrium (far-from-equilibrium) thermodynamics, correlated systems, condensed matter. Theory also exists in complex systems, where quantum mechanics does not play any role. On PhysicsOverflow, one should see all these topics. These topics do no appear here probably because there are also nearly absent on Physics.SE. They are part of university courses, so the concerned communities would not interested in Physics.SE. PhysicsOverflow could have been an opportunity to enlarge the community of teachers, students and researchers sharing their knowlegde, but it has remain extremely narrow-banded, below the critical mass.

answered Dec 7, 2015 by Tom-Tom (50 points) [ no revision ]

Hi Tom-Tom,

thanks for your thoughts and feedback !

Yes, the Q&A part of PhysicsOverflow is indeed meant to be a physics analog of MathOverflow. All topics of physics (including astronomy, experimental, and applied physics) as well as math that is used by and of importance to physicists are welcome, as long as it is graduate-level at least.

We would be more than happy to see people posting about at present not so well represented on-topics, such as the ones you mentioned for example. It might be that we have a bit of a "chicken-or-egg problem": because these topics are not often present on the front page people dont (dare to?) post such questions, and because people dont post such questions, they are not sufficiently represented on the front page ect ...

One way to seed new topics a bit could be to import corresponding high-level questions from Physics SE.

PO is an invitation to contribute. If you want to see your field represented, the best thing you can do is to ask or answer questions (or import questions from Physics SE that you can answer or want to see answered) from your fields of interest.

The current bias (apart from being inherited from the former TheoreticalPhysics SE) stems solely from the fact that a handful of founding members cannot contribute to more than a few research subjects within the vast realms of physics.

+ 3 like - 2 dislike

Thank you, polarkernel, for all the work you invested into this site; I am sure that it will pay off in the long run. 

I don't think that PO is dead; it just needs time since the level of the questions, and hence the effort needed to write good answers, means that answering is slower and fewer people spend their time on it. Indeed, contributing significantly to PO is very time-consuming, and I just had a break of 3 months because other work didn't allow me to free enough time to contribute.

On the other hand, I also think that PO needs better rules for handling rudeness. Professional scientists are used to an academic atmosphere that is polite, friendly and inviting, and few are willing to actively support an institution where these attributes are missing. But we need them to give answers to the many questions with currently 0 answers and to give the review section more weight.

I therefore strongly support Prathyush's view that the nonscientific part of all contributions should be edited whenever it can be improved in tone without affecting the scientific content. This has nothing to do with scientific censorship which is the suppression of the right to openly discuss scientific opinions.

Therefore I do not agree with Ron Maimon on the extent the user should be protected. I don't want contributors to be banned for rudeness, but I want them to be corrected, so that all content visible to the casual user has a polite, friendly and inviting appearance, and any rudeness that may have been imported by users should be hidden in the revision history for the few who want to search in it, and to be able to clear up user complaits about poor editing (which are hopefully rare). Moreover, editors or moderators responsible for an occasional inappropriate edit should be protected to the same extent as users who write contributions in an inappropriate tone. 

Since Ron Maimon was very influential in establishing the no-rudeness rules of the site I'll take his posts as example. I very much dislike his tone in several of his contributions; for example this review, which is far below scientific standards as regards the tone of the review. In my opinion, this sort of rudeness chases away many potential contributors, and if the rudeness is not far outweighed by scientific content, it is detrimental to a scientific discussion and to the reputation of the site in the outside world. (I left StackExchange after his ban there not because I supported his rudeness but because I found the SE action inappropriate compared to what he had contributed there.) 

It is necessary for a healthy site to suppress rudeness. The contributor's individual words are not sacred and should not be treated as sacred, only the scientific content they contribute is. I do not at all support the expression of any sort of rudeness - I am just willing to temporarily tolerate it if it is compensated for by the high scientific quality of the contributions. But the contribution should then be edited such that all traces of rudeness are purged out, hidden in the revision history. I would have done such editing in a number of cases myself if the rules had allowed it, in the same way as I routinely correct for mistakes in spelling or grammar. The quality of the site increases not only with the scientific content (which is of course central) but also with the quality of the form in which this content is presented, and for newcomers the latter plays an even larger role than for regular members. 

The voting mechanism is not a suitable regulator for the quality of form. I never downvote because of the form, since downvoting should be for scientific content. (I also don't upvote a post just because its form is perfect, if the content is not also good.) Moreover voting on comments (where a lot of the rudeness happens) has no effect on user reputation, hence exerts no real influence at all.

Thus users who are allowed to edit should actively improve the outer form; any scientific content including the most severe criticism can be cast into a polite form at the level acceptable in any professional scientific paper or referee's report. The rules of PO should explicitly say that this is expected and will be achieved primarily through contributions by users who care, and if care is lacking, through editing by competent and trusted members. (Moderation means creating a moderate atmosphere, and this includes creating politeness.)

There is nothing ethically dubious about such a procedure. The contributors know what to expect; if they think they are corrected without sufficient reason, they can complain, and everyone can check the editor's actions, and other competent and trusted members can reedit poor edits if necessary. 

On the other hand, the rules should say explicitly that all scientific content - i.e., facts or beliefs about scientific matters, including criticism, reformulated in a polite way if necessary (even unjustified beliefs or criticism) - will be preserved in the main text, while all matters of forms may be subject to correction, in which case the original form will still be available in the original form in the revision history. Thus all users will be able to thrive in a polite and healthy atmosphere, and contributors must not fear to be banned because of secondary reasons such as lack of politeness. 

I hope such changes to the PO policy are feasible and will be made quickly, as this is necessary to attract all those who like to contribute only in an atmosphere comparable to that existing in the traditional academic institutions. 

answered Mar 3, 2015 by Arnold Neumaier (12,570 points) [ revision history ]
edited Mar 3, 2015 by Arnold Neumaier
Most voted comments show all comments

I am still somewhat short of time but will do so soon (not tonight though, I am just preparing to leave). 

Why not make the user-rights easier to find by placing them more conspicuously?

@ArnoldNeumaier @Dilaton @RonMaimon @JiaYiyang @dimension10 @physicsnewbie

For this moment I will not be asking for a change in any policy. While it is clear that in any forum such as this site, role of a moderator is to keep non scientific content out of the site. And the community's responsibility to make sure only non scientific content is removed from the site.

It is possible that even the most well intended changes could be misused at some point.

I was assured that the current mechanism, will keep junk away from the site.

In the event that the current mechanism would fail, I will reconsider changing of the policy.

I will change the text of the review. I simply was speaking off the cuff, and I did not consider the tone of voice at all. I stand by all the technical content of the post however, and I think it is not fair that Dynin has people bending over backwards asking me to be polite to him, while Marco Frasca (or Vladimir Kalitvianski) does not. It's simply because of the authority he has accrued in academic discussions. But I change it because I respect your opinion Arnold, and I will consider this discussion as a request. One of the goals I personally had was trying to convince moderators to ask instead of impose. Don't you want to catch the bugs with honey, not vinegar?

I actually wrote the review without having read any previous publication by Dynin other than this one, and he did not have a mantle of authority for me. Perhaps I would not have been so rude had I read something else by him, but I treated it as a manuscript without a name, sent unsolicited to my door (by being referenced and posted here). This led to the disconnect between the tone and the expected tone, I suppose. But Dynin's feelings also need to be considered, although it is extremely strange for me to think that any tenured academic with a long publication record of correct results could possibly have their feelings hurt by anything I might have to say, as I imagine that their skin was already thick. Regardless, out of consideration for your opinion, I modified the review, and I hope the tone is acceptable now.

I expect that any future problems with rudeness can be resolved this way, by a civil request and by shaming the user into being more polite, rather than through imposition of power. I am surprised you did not make a comment on my wall or on the answer itself requesting a more polite tone, as I believe I would have made similar changes earlier. At the time, I was more worried about what his quartic term in the Hamiltonian does, rather than what the tone was.

@Prathyush, I take Ron's words to mean "If you just ask civilly, the author of the rude text will naturally feel ashamed and retract the rudeness."

@RonMaimon: Thanks for improving the tone of the review. Many other opportunities for improving your tone (since you asked me on my wall) are in your discussions on meta (e.g., here) and on the walls of people like Prathyush. Whenever your political course is in danger you seem to get mad and lose all sense of respect.

Most recent comments show all comments

@Ron Maimon I'm shocked at your change in attitude. I thought the whole point of this site was to allow rudeness and directness; to tell someone they're an incompetent idiot when they're one. I see NOTHING different in your treatment of Vladimir and tenrured academics when you review what they write. As you say, when someone knows what they're talking about, they're usually immune from rudeness because they're protected by the truth and certainty. They know their peers see what they see.

But still, at least you won't get your arse whipped over it here as much as you did at PSE.

@physicsnewbie: There is no change in attitude--- I was never really all that rude on PSE either, or anywhere else, at least no more than the amount I was rude in the review before editing (it is still rude after editing). The only time I insulted was when someone started arguing from authority and then you need to insult the authority. Everyone needs to be treated equally, that's all, so that authority doesn't cloud things.

@Prathyush: anyone who thinks they are immune to authority is not immune. I know that I am certainly not immune, and this helps make me more immune, because I counteract against the tendency by double checking the authorities twice, and bending over backwards to take seriously people who are on the margins. If you don't do this, then you will make terrible authority mistakes again and again, for example, you will believe the recent dismissal of the BICEP results on PLANCK's authority (correct or not, jury is still out, but only authority is behind the rejection of BICEP).

+ 2 like - 2 dislike

Physics overflow isn't dying at all, just the opposite. In my personal opinion, PhysicsOverflow has just been born as a healthy, mature site. Perhaps it's now ready to go out of beta.

It's an open and honest forum, with honest discussion about all problems, with honest moderators that tell the truth always (to the best of their knowledge, and with good intention), and one incredible developer working on it.

The squabbling is simply not a sign of death. This isn't an advertising agency. It's both the way physicists normally talk to one another (or at least, how they used to talk, and should talk), and it's also the sign of a healthy intenet community with no censorship, where people can discuss science without the threat of being silenced from above.

This might not be obvious to a non-physicist who is not accustomed to online discussions. At the moment, after Jia reassured me, I myself have full faith in all the other moderators, and I am pretty sure they will have full faith in me too in return. I also realized that you are a separate person, and I am very thankful for the description you gave of yourself, and I think that you are a saint. I said "you don't talk to me" because the emails you send to Dimension10 are not auto-forwarded, that's all, not to imply that you are hostile, rather that I am shut out and among the moderators, only Dimension10 trusts me.

I have not contributed science to the site since the political problems began, which is when Vladimir started getting harrassed. I think others were put off by this too, but I can't speak for them. I am fully convinced that the community functions well, because I have said stupid things and less stupid things, and nothing has been hidden, closed, or shut down. All that happened is that we figured out what happened honestly, then reasonable people made  reasonable up and down votes and came to reasonable conclusions. There is no need to hide anything, this type of discussion is a sign of complete honesty, and is attractive to any decent physicist.

The reason I got such a "halo" around me (inasmuch as it is true, which is not so much) is because I did similarly rude things in other forums, and then was banned for it eventually, but to physicists familiar with the role of forthright honesty and rudeness, my behavior was not seen as a problem rather the banning was. I am have no political power on the site, and I am not trying to get any. I simply removed power from others. Physics works only if there is no authority. In case you think that is a contradiction, lessening someone else's power does not make yours go up, because power is not a conserved quantity. You can make everyone's power go down, including yourself, and that's what happened here.

The people who left, in my opinion, left because they were worried about the moderation--- there was simply no guarantee that abuses would not happen. I think we have demonstrated that this is impossible, that open discussion means that abuse will get exposed and fixed quickly.

answered Jan 29, 2015 by Ron Maimon (7,535 points) [ revision history ]
edited Jan 29, 2015 by Ron Maimon
I agree with Ron about everything. In fact, Ron did his best to save the site. It is too early to judge. Of course, regular intervention of Dilaton in my conversations with other users distracted us and hindered the very discussions. I have suspended my participation several times - to than extent I was disappointed with Dilaton and dimension10. Now, I hope, the atmosphere became healthier and more attractive to participants. Now we may advertise the site without shame. @polarkernel: We all are grateful to you, really. Do not give up. Soon, everything will be much better. (By the way, the anonymity of Dilaton is a myth. Even I found his name on internet. Besides, anonymity of an elected ruler does not look democratic.)
+ 2 like - 2 dislike
Dear @polarkerner,

We are very grateful to you.

In  my opinion there are two problems: First, the rate of contributions is very low. This is in my opinion the reason why many people left the forum: it's a chain reaction. When we users start to contribute, more people will come. This can happen at any time, for example, tomorrow. I really think it will happen soon. Second, the recent censorship problem. One of the moderators (Dilaton) has admitted his mistakes. I personally have forgiven him and I am still grateful to him (and to dimension10 and to you as well) for setting up this forum. However, in order to close this sad issue, I personally believe that Dilation must stop moderating. His "mistake" (I've used quotes because it was made on purpose) was very serious. Impunity is always the seed of new "crimes". I really think that he should stop moderating. And also all moderators have to receive all emails and be kept updated.
answered Jan 29, 2015 by drake (885 points) [ no revision ]
Can the downvoter explain their reasons?
+1, and I am still a pariah among the mods. You have to understand the moderator mentality--- they have a feeling that once you're "in the club" you can't betray the others in the club by agreeing to remove people, or add too many new ones. Would you like to be mod by the way? You seem nice. I'll nominate you.

It's not supposed to be the moderator's choice who mods, the users choose who to approve as moderator. I am sure Dilaton will be trusted again very soon, as I have verified that aside from the one incident involving comment deletion and details of that, pretty much everything else pans out. I no longer worry about multiple personalities, or sock-puppeting, or code shenanigans. Everything was on the up and up except the one thing.
+1 for "This is in my opinion the reason why many people left the forum: it's a chain reaction.", this is my speculation too.
The same chain reaction brings people back when you host some real, actual, content they can't get elsewhere. That means a new result, actual physics. They also come when their papers are reviewed, but its better not to be too harsh, as the early tone of reviews was perhaps too negative because it's always easier to see the bad than the good.
+ 2 like - 2 dislike

What is it about physicsoverflow that needs "reviving"?

Maybe some have this deluded perception that it should be performing as well as Mathoverflow?

Physicsoverflow has never been, and never will be within the next two years, in the same class as Mathoverflow:

  • Mathoverflow was started by Berkeley graduate students and postdocs Anton Geraschenko, David Zureick-Brown, and Scott Morrison. Physicsoverflow was started by Dilaton, Dimension10, Polarkernel, none of whom appear to have a Phd qualification in cutting edge physics to attract their peers here.
  • Mathoverflow was originally hosted by Ravi Vakil, and is now integrated into the regular Stack Exchange network. Physicsoverflow.org is currently owned by Polarkernel who owns the code, won't release it as things stand and might even sell it. Therefore, there's a growing feeling that all contributions made here are pointless long term and could end up being binned within a year or so.
  • The Mathoverflow homepage has a pleasant, professional look about it, whereas Physicsoverflow looks still amateurish, in my opinion.
  • Maths is a more popular subject than physics, meaning much lower traffic here.

I therefore think this idea of "reviving" physicsoverflow is just deluded nonsense. Physicsoverflow exists, there's three hard-working people making it work, it's continuing to evolve, numbers are settling down to what the site deserves long term, it's a magnificent achievement compared to what existed a year ago.

Let's stick to being realistic about what the site deserves based upon the way things are.

answered Feb 2, 2015 by physicsnewbie (-20 points) [ revision history ]
edited Feb 2, 2015 by physicsnewbie

I agree with the positive outlook and nature of the answer, but I have a few squabbles.

  1. You don't really know whom Dilaton is, his qualifications, etc.
  2. I don't understand how "polarkernel may also sell it" has any negative implication. Just to be sure, we're talking about him selling his plugins, theme, and patches, not the site itself! Stack Exchange is also proprietary software, and was "sold" to MathOverflow as well, by the way.
  3. I don't think this site looks amateurishly designed. In fact, I'd say it is much more well-designed than MO, because MO doesn't embrace flat design yet.

@dimension10 1a. Yes, the Stack Exchange software was sold from the start before the site was created before anyone had invested time and effort, whereas massive time and effort has already been invested in the creation of physicsoverflow.org, yet it's reliant on code it doesn't own that lies entirely in the hands of someone else who won't release it to anyone on here because he wants to sell it eventually 1b. Whois gives the registrant as Roger Cattin aka Polarkernel so I'm assuming he's the one who owns the site right now. He also claims in his post that: " I could immediately close the site".

2. It gives me cause for concern that you honestly believe your design is "much more well designed than MO". It's certainly a "good, functional" design, but lacks the professional crispness of say even n-lab, although no doubt you'll disagree ;) But there's not a lot that can be done about this, since it would require the input of a good graphics-designer/website-designer that does this for a living, or has an intense interest in this field.

@physicsnewbie: look and feel are the first thing the user sees, but the easiest things to change. We have a scalable site that is capable of organizing both Q&A and reviews completely heirarchically using arbitrarily deeply nesting tags, and this allows us to be far more useful, as we can directly access anything by subject, subfield, topic, subtopic, or independently and overlapping tags, like equation, method, or reference to a particular scientist or user. This is the central feature we offer than no one else offers, and it is what makes this site scalable as a serious refereeing and scientific platform. The UI issues are next to deal with, and I have an idea for doing so, but as Polarkernel does not feel like releasing source, I'll try do it myself first.
+ 0 like - 3 dislike
This whole system is screwed. You need a system where you can't delete or hide anything, not if you are a normal user/mod/admin NO ONE. Moderators like Dimension10 and Dilaton should step down as admins/moderators like Ron Maimon did and be replaced by completely new people.
answered Feb 7, 2015 by WolfInSheepSkin (-40 points) [ revision history ]
edited Feb 7, 2015 by WolfInSheepSkin
That's complete poppycock. You need to hide spam, you need to hide retaliatory posts, like deanonymization attacks, you need to move or hide material that is completely off-topic (like a person posting their personal wild theory in 20 different places), you need to hide homework questions that are too low-level. The moderators are doing a much more difficult job that appears at first glance, one in which it is very easy to make missteps, and the users only see the annoying side of the stick, because when it works well, moderation is basically invisible. Just cut the moderators some slack, everyone had good intentions throughout.

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